Curse

Reverend Dr · Aug 12, 2009, 05:05 AM // 05:05

And the W/D also won't find themselves doing over 400 damage if they slot Asuran Scan.

reaper with no name · Aug 12, 2009, 05:15 AM // 05:15

The point is that Vow of Strength activates so rarely it's not worth it. Conditions are plentiful and extremely useful. If they weren't, everyone and their grandmother would be using Vow of Strength. Instead, nobody does.

Arghore · Aug 12, 2009, 03:39 PM // 15:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arghore

First off, i do not play a Dervish, so it is hard for me to understand if there is actually something broken or not; mainly because die-hard dervishes say there is nothing wrong with them, where others claim they are not even worth a character slot...

Problem?
But, if it is indeed the case that R/D, W/D and A/D using a scyth are better at Dervishing then a D/* is with a similar build, then clearly something is 'wrongish',

Analysis 1
as i would emagine the primairy profession to be the better at using its skills, then using these same skills as a 2e profession
(this is mainly how i understand the Prophecies professions to work) ...

Analysis 2
Then it is also the case that, as a */D, you can't get the attribute beyond 12-ish, where a D/* would be able to get said attribute to 16+, if anything, this should make the difference between damage/effect output of the skills used.

Analysis 3
Given the Scyth is the weapon for the Dervish, i would conclude that the primairy attribute 'mysticism' (not available for */D) should give a buff to the Dervish that makes it better at Dervishing; From what i read in threads sofar, this should be Scyth using and Enchantment Jugling (casting/stripping) *correct me if i misunderstood*

Solution Scythbuff?
Sofar i understand weapons to be mainly the same in set-up, meaning, all melee weapons have similar buff upgrades, as do casting weapons; so i see no real need to make a Scyth a different weapon in relation to its use... Each melee weapon comes with a set of skills and the upgrades used are largely depending on the players preferences, and in some cases the preference for the build this player runs (be it vamp/ zeal/ penetrating/ damagetype) ... From this i would say giving the Dervish a buff to Scyth damage output on say mysticism, would make it viable to also add this buff to say Tactics for using a melee weapon as a worrior

... or a buff to the damage of Axe/Sword/Hammer's, depending on the lvl of the attribute (which to me sounds silly, as this relation is currently allready there, through the skills in the attribute catagory) ... so, /not signed for buffing the Dervish in this way..

Sollution Enchantment buff?
The Enchantment Jugling then becomes a way to buff the Dervish, if indeed the current jugling is 'broken'; unfortunatly i lack experience in dervish use to know if a buff here would fix things. But since the Mysticism attribute is currently related to this jugling and the bonus to this is related with HP/E management (which indeed makes it a harder profession to play, and perhaps not the best choise for a newer player, but it could be the next challenge for a long time Warrior). A Buff here might be viable ... But, as this is HP/E management this will not solve the Damage Output 'problem' as is currently put forth as the main problem, in relation with 2e prof. */D Dervishes.
** So perhaps the Dervish needs some more Enchantments and or strips to further its speciality in this damage/buff niche?

Solution Attribute Points
So from this i must conclude that if there is truely something wrong, the sollution must be found in the scaling of effect/output of the skills related to the attribute lvl. As apparently raising your scythmastery to 12 makes it to powerfull when being used as a 2e prof. To me this would mean scaling down the effects/output for <12 attributed, and keep the 12+ as it is now ... Mainly meaning a Nerf to the 2e prof. /D builds;
Kindoff disappointing to me

to draw this conclusion, as a Buff sounds way more positive then a Nerf; but from this analysis i can't find an other simple way to give 'Dervishing' back to the Dervish, in relation to the */D builds that are said to outdervish them...

Came up with another solution for this 'problem' ...

Solution Skill Reshuffle
Place some of the skills that 'define or make' a dervish from the other attributes into the Mysticism attribute so the */D cannot get them

a Nerfed version of the skill could perhaps replace the moved skill, so the */D build would still work, but not as good as the Dervish build

Reverend Dr · Aug 12, 2009, 06:52 PM // 18:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

The point is that Vow of Strength activates so rarely it's not worth it. Conditions are plentiful and extremely useful. If they weren't, everyone and their grandmother would be using Vow of Strength. Instead, nobody does.

It appears that you are just determined to believe that dervs are underpowered and have no roll in any party. No really this plays the same as W/D, exactly the same, it is not outclassed by WE scythe, it is not useless compared to W/D, it hits larger numbers than W/D.

What do you want? Do you want a button that dervs can press that wins the game?

shoyon456 · Aug 13, 2009, 01:15 AM // 01:15

Poll options suck, the problem is that Mysticism works less effectively in conjunction with a scythe than Strength, Expertise, and Critical Strikes.

CHANGE, not buff, Mysticism and Mysticism-line skills. Nerf scythe damage so crits arent wtfpwn. Give only dervs the ability to hit 3 enemies with scythes

reaper with no name · Aug 13, 2009, 01:43 AM // 01:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

It appears that you are just determined to believe that dervs are underpowered and have no roll in any party. No really this plays the same as W/D, exactly the same, it is not outclassed by WE scythe, it is not useless compared to W/D, it hits larger numbers than W/D.

What do you want? Do you want a button that dervs can press that wins the game?

The only way VoS has any effect is if enemies have no conditions on them. If your party isn't inflicting any conditions, then you're playing in a party that has gimped itself just so you can deal another 40 or so damage per attack. In other words, yes, it is less outclassed, because a party with a VoS dervish is only better than one with a WE scythe warrior when the party of the former gimps itself. The power of the party is more important than the numbers one character can hit.

I don't want my class to be overpowered, if that's what you think. I just want it to have something over the other classes, just like the other classes have something over it. Warriors are tougher, Assassins have insta-gib. Everyone should have something they do best. That's the essence of balance. The Dervish at present has nothing except a couple of niche builds with questionable usefulness. Throw my class a freaking bone here, okay? Then I'll cross this off my list of stuff that's wrong with the game (which thankfully has been getting shorter as of late thanks to Anet; there's just a few things left for them to fix to make me happy...).

Quote:

Originally Posted by shoyon456

Poll options suck, the problem is that Mysticism works less effectively in conjunction with a scythe than Strength, Expertise, and Critical Strikes.

CHANGE, not buff, Mysticism and Mysticism-line skills. Nerf scythe damage so crits arent wtfpwn. Give only dervs the ability to hit 3 enemies with scythes

The first one goes under the "buff" option or "more unique stuff" option (depending on what you mean specifically), and the second and third go under the "nerf everyone else" option. However, I should really have included an "I don't care, as long as they get fixed" option, because that's what I personally would have voted for.

However, a thing to note about scythe damage that no one has considered yet is MSDB. Technically, scythe users are not the ultimate melee AoE. MSDB takes that cake. MSDB does more damage against primary targets and tertiary (area) targets (because scythes don't hit those). Scythe users only do more damage against secondary (adjacent) targets (because the secondary targets only get hit by the DB part of MSDB). Nerfing scythes in general could easily take away the only reason to use scythes at all. So, let's try not to nerf the primary dervishes at all when it comes to scythes, ok? Please?

Jin Of Stealth · Aug 13, 2009, 07:40 AM // 07:40

After much reading through all of your responses, (What a feat in and of itself) I think I have come up with an idea that could at least support the Dervish a bit more.

On top of changing AoHM geared towards Mysticism, also make the ending effects of Mysticism a little bit different. Because some of you have been saying that the health boost was unecessary, why not change the health boost into damage inflicted to say adjacent or nearby enemies? Albeit, maybe not make the damage inflicted very high. This alone would make dervishes dishing out more damage than their */D preticessors, as well as hint the dervish to cast enchantments in the battle, not before hand. This would definitely sync by being able to enchant and do damage, something no other class could do.

And also, since there is little gain in energy from the aftereffects, why not make it so you gain say 6 energy at say ranks 13+. This would at least give you back your energy for casting a 5energy skill, and give a little bonus.

Along side of these other changes, maybe make some skills more viable to enchantment juggle (Which in my opinion is that special niche Dervishes seem to have).

Well, these are just my ideas on hopefully fixing some of these flaws dervishes have. I'm open for anybody else's opinions on my ideas. Just don't be hard on me, I bruise like a banana. *Wraps self in bubble rap in preparation of onslaught*

reaper with no name · Aug 13, 2009, 08:00 AM // 08:00

They're good ideas on paper, actually, but they've either been brought up already or just wouldn't be enough in practice.

Linking AoHM's duration to mysticism so that only primary dervishes can use it effectively would single-handedly fix the class. That was already submitted as a formal suggestion though, so that angle is pretty much exhausted (I sincerely hope Anet implements it though, because it's such an easy fix that wouldn't adversely affect the balance of the game at all; heck, I could do it if they let me look through the source code a bit).

Depending on how much it was, making mysticism cause damage at the end of enchantments probably wouldn't be enough (you have to remember, warriors and sins are beating dervs by more than just 10 dps) unless it was really overpowered.

Making it so that 13 mysticism gave back 6 energy on an enchantment ending, while a good idea on paper, wouldn't help in practice because it still doesn't come close to the energy management of sins and warriors (which allows them to spam attack skills and enchantments, one of the major things making them superior to dervishes). Another problem is that mysticism gives you energy after you need it.

They're good ideas, but the problems facing dervishes are large enough that minor tweaks like that just won't do it.

Dervs get:

Higher scythe mastery (that is, up to 8 more damage rating)

Warriors and Sins get:

The energy to spam anything you give them
More survivability
Strength/Critical Strikes

Dervs just can't compete, and because warriors and sins beat dervishes for slightly different reasons (critical strikes versus strength) a couple of minor tweaks generally won't be enough to fix the dervish unless those tweaks nerf the competition by linking mysticism to other things; such as number of opponents who can be hit by the scythe (another good suggestion, one that somebody ought to submit as a formal one). Ah, what the heck, I'll go and do it.

Zahr Dalsk · Aug 13, 2009, 08:17 AM // 08:17

Truth be told I don't see what needs fixing about Dervishes.

It'd be cool if Spirit's Strength was a constant effect skill instead of an enchantment, so I could run my Rt/D build more easily, but, y'know, can't have everything. Self-targeting Great Dwarf Weapon would be awesome to round it out, though.

And uh yeah, Dervishes themselves... seem to do decent damage and all that, survive well enough, etc. Nice armour and such, cool attack animations.

reaper with no name · Aug 13, 2009, 08:25 AM // 08:25

You don't have a problem with warriors and sins being able to beat the dervish at just about everything?

I guess you also don't have a problem with ER making monks useless.

Actually, this problem is worse than that, because at least monks have the advantages of being able to fit condition/hex removal on their bar and being better smiters. Dervishes don't even get that.

Jin Of Stealth · Aug 13, 2009, 08:38 AM // 08:38

@ reaper with no name
Like I said, some of these numbers dont really need to be that low or high. As I myself do want to give Dervishes their much needed buffings, I also don't want to OP the class. The effects of mysticism with damage dealt could be anywhere from 10-30, but take into account the area that this damage is being dealt. As for the amount of energy gain, the number you get at a certain rank is still debatable, and perhaps make the effects of energy gain in mysticism happen whenever an enchantment is casted upon yourself, not when it ends. And when an enchantment ends, you can laugh at that enemies face saying "Even though you stripped my enchant, here's a parting gift. Damage for you and your friends."

Also, the reason being why I mentioned the AoHM, is because I read alot of people wanting that tied to mysticism, so I also mentioned it alongside with what ANet could also impliment. I'm assuming this was that idea(s) that you mentioned were already brought up.

Zahr Dalsk · Aug 13, 2009, 08:46 AM // 08:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

You don't have a problem with warriors and sins being able to beat the dervish at just about everything?

Not really, no. A Dervish can still handle PvE just fine - any class can - so there's no problem, as far as I know.

At least you don't have people running around with a bar full of your skills, none of their own, exploiting a primary attribute.

reaper with no name · Aug 13, 2009, 08:49 AM // 08:49

Yeah, I sort of started that AoHM boat, it seems. I'm surprised no one else thought of that.

But enchantment stripping is fairly rare in PvE, which is where the problems exist. I honestly don't know what the dervish's situation in PvP is. For all I know, a well-built PvP dervish might be able to steamroll over everything.

Zahr Dalsk · Aug 13, 2009, 08:53 AM // 08:53

I'm looking at the retarded poll...

What should be done to fix dervishes?
Buff them <- not sure as they need nerfing
Nerf every other scythe-user <- Hey, I like a little spirit's strength scything every now and then
Give them more unique stuff to set them apart (like AoM and AoD) <- What, five avatars so far still not good enough?
Nothing; it's okay for dervishes to suck <- But they DON'T suck.

Where's my option for "nothing, Dervishes are just fine"?

reaper with no name · Aug 13, 2009, 08:59 AM // 08:59

Yes, they do suck.

Let's look at everything a non-order dervish can do, shall we?

Scything - Ws and As are better
Survivability - Ws and As are better
Utility - Ws and As are better
Enchantment spam - Ws and As are better

And by the way, they win at all categories at the same time.

3 out of the 5 avatars aren't worth bringing along, because W/Ds and A/Ds STILL beat them in offense AND defense. Only AoM and AoD are decent, and then only because of condition immunity and hex removal.

Is your enjoyment with a broken, overpowered build that should never have existed more important than the enjoyment of an entire class? I don't think so. Fortunately, it doesn't really matter if a rit can use a scythe better than a derv, because at least the derv has more armor than it. The derv does not, however, have anything over the W/D and A/D. More than 90% of the time, anything a D/X can do, a W/D or A/D can do better. That's why dervishes suck; there's practically no reason to use one when you can just bring along a Warrior or Assassin who will do their job even better.

Jin Of Stealth · Aug 13, 2009, 09:08 AM // 09:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zahr Dalsk

I'm looking at the retarded poll...

What should be done to fix dervishes?
Buff them <- Is changing an attribute's effects buffing?
Nerf every other scythe-user <- Who cares that other fanboys want to be uber grim reapers?
Give them more unique stuff to set them apart (like AoM and AoD) <- I suck at abbreviations so no comment O_o
Nothing; it's okay for dervishes to suck <- But they DON'T suck.Yep, what he said.

Where's my option for "nothing, Dervishes are just fine"?

Added some of my own comments in place of some of yours. Haha, and I do kinda see where you're going. I stared at the poll for a while too and decided to not vote

Zahr Dalsk · Aug 13, 2009, 09:10 AM // 09:10

Who cares if a Warrior or Assassin does it better? A Dervish does it quite well enough.

Just because there's no reason TO use a Dervish doesn't mean there's a reason NOT to use a Dervish.

I've gotten through most of PvE using a sub-par class, one for which every other class can do whatever it does better, and I've managed just fine. Sure, a monk can heal better. An assassin can do more damage. A paragon does better protection. A Necromancer makes better use of my own Restoration and Channeling lines. But I can still get by PvE HM just fine, because it's good enough. (Recent spirit buff notwithstanding. That was a huge boost to Ritualists, but I managed perfectly well before it.)

Same goes for the Dervish.

Jin Of Stealth · Aug 13, 2009, 09:18 AM // 09:18

*Checks Buff them option*
Well in that case, just impliment at least my idea of mysticism. Make the AoHM change. And maybe as another idea scanning the forums is limit max number of foes you can hit to 2 for other classes unless at least 1 point is invested into mysticicm.(This would at least make using Dervish as a main more favorable because of that one extra person)

The fact that majority of the people in these forums agree that Dervish can be outplayed by other classes in many other factors means there does need to be some kind of change, whether it buffs the Dervish in some factor, or just makes using a Dervish more favorable to play as a main profession rather than secondary. (Kind of redundant, but still slightly different)

reaper with no name · Aug 13, 2009, 09:26 AM // 09:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zahr Dalsk

Who cares if a Warrior or Assassin does it better? A Dervish does it quite well enough.

Just because there's no reason TO use a Dervish doesn't mean there's a reason NOT to use a Dervish.

I've gotten through most of PvE using a sub-par class, one for which every other class can do whatever it does better, and I've managed just fine. Sure, a monk can heal better. An assassin can do more damage. A paragon does better protection. A Necromancer makes better use of my own Restoration and Channeling lines. But I can still get by PvE HM just fine, because it's good enough. (Recent spirit buff notwithstanding. That was a huge boost to Ritualists, but I managed perfectly well before it.)

Same goes for the Dervish.

While we're at it, why not put mending on our bars? The fact that the dervish doesn't do anything as well as it should compared to the competition is the definition of a balance issue.

Heck, let's just nerf dervishes even further. So long as they're "good enough" it doesn't matter if they suck, right?

And let's nerf your Rt/D build until it sucks, too, along with every other rit build you might want to use. As long as you get by with it, everything is fine, right?

Zahr Dalsk · Aug 13, 2009, 09:47 AM // 09:47

You know, I'm almost inclined to buy a character slot and make a PvE dervish just to prove you wrong.

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

While we're at it, why not put mending on our bars?

You can do that if you like. You'll still be able to roll most of PvE.

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

The fact that the dervish doesn't do anything as well as it should compared to the competition is the definition of a balance issue.

Competition? Are we discussing PvE or not? There isn't competition in PvE.

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

Heck, let's just nerf dervishes even further. So long as they're "good enough" it doesn't matter if they suck, right?

Why nerf them? They're fine as they are. Nerfing is unnecessary and uses pointless developer time, same as buffing them would.

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

And let's nerf your Rt/D build until it sucks, too, along with every other rit build you might want to use. As long as you get by with it, everything is fine, right?

What do you mean, until?

Surprise: compared to other classes, they already do. Hasn't stopped us vanquishing areas with all-ritualist teams, laughing at the ease with which we did it. You know why? PvE is easy.

Let me bottom-line it for you:

The dervish may not be as effective as a Warrior or Assassin, but is still very effective in PvE.